Minka Guides: Hi everybody, and welcome back to Minka Guides.
I’m your host, Bronwyn.
This month, we’re talking about why people think if you’re bisexual, you must be non-monogamous.
Very fittingly, this month, I have Robert Brooks Cohen from the Two Bi Guys podcast here to have this conversation with me.
Welcome, Rob.
Robert Brooks Cohen (he/him): Hello.
How are you? Good to be here.
Minka Guides: Ah, I’m glad, Rob.
Why don’t you tell everyone a little bit about yourself and why you’re so perfectly suited for this topic?
Robert: Well, I am a non-monogamous bisexual. So I’m playing into the stereotype right away.
Minka Guides: Surprise!
Robert: But not everyone is like me and we’ll discuss that here in a bit.
But, yeah I’m Rob Cohen. I didn’t come out as bisexual until a little bit later in life. In my early thirties. I identified a straight until then.
I think partially for that reason, once I did come out, it became a big topic for me. Almost like a cause because I started to think, “Why didn’t I come out sooner?” and “What led me to this road?” Because once I came out, it seemed so natural and it made so much sense. Like the universe started clicking into place.
I understood all these things that I didn’t used to understand. It connected me to not just other queer people but other people in general. In all these new ways I understood marginalization. It transformed my life and so I wanted to talk about that a lot.
I started a podcast with my friend Alex called Two Bi Guys. He had identified as gay for most of his life. I had identified as straight and then we met at this bisexual discussion group, sort of in the middle. And so we started this podcast. We talked about all this stuff. We interviewed a lot of bi people. That eventually led me to write a book that came out at the end of 2023 called Bisexual Married Men: Stories of Relationships, Acceptance and Authenticity.
In that book, I interviewed a bunch of bi men who are or were married to women. The topic of non-monogamy came up in every single interview, which doesn’t mean that they all were non-monogamous. Actually, the majority landed on monogamy. Or stayed there entirely.
But because there’s this association between bisexuality and non-monogamy, one partner or the other would always end up bringing it up. So every single one of those couples ended up at least discussing it if not trying it out. So there’s a complicated relationship. It’s a good topic but it’s not a direct. Obviously, it’s not a direct relationship. Not all bi people are non-monogamous.
Minka Guides: No, but I think that it’s so interesting because the idea for this conversation came from your podcast.
I was listening to all of these men talk about their experiences about coming into their bisexuality after getting married. Then suddenly that being this conversation or a hurdle or an issue that was in their marriage to be explored or overcome or navigated. Because there was this idea, “Well, what does this mean for us now if you are into more people? Does that mean that you’re wanting to not be monogamous anymore?”
So that was really interesting.
But I wondered what are some of the biggest stereotypes you’ve come across about bisexuals that exist out there? Alongside non-monogamy.
Robert: It’s funny when you said that people think that bisexual people will want to sleep with other people because they’re bi. Well, straight people are still attracted to like about half of the global population.
Minka Guides: Exactly.
Robert: When it goes from three billion possibilities to six billion, suddenly now you’re non-monogamous? But when it’s three billion you’re fine with monogamy? So, it’s funny how straightness doesn’t necessarily mean you’re only attracted to one person, either.
Minka Guides: Absolutely.
Robert: So, I mean this is definitely a big one, an interesting one.
I do think there’s there’s the perception that for bisexual men, the biggest one is that they’re really gay, and the gay side will win out eventually. There’s a perception, especially for bisexual men married to women that eventually they will leave their female partner for men. That’s a big one.
Then there’s a stereotype that we’re just confused or that we can’t make up our minds. That plays into the non-monogamy thing where you can’t make up your mind among the genders, and also, you can’t make up your mind to stick with one person.
If you are a monogamously oriented person, that’s fine and normal. You’re allowed to be that. But many monogamously oriented people have this sort of perception that everyone is like that. That’s the ideal of love, and it’s meant to be one-to-one.
The more I’ve explored polyamory and learned about it, it’s actually quite natural and normal also. It’s a very different way of viewing the world but it’s not necessarily something we’re confused and figuring out.
It is (for most poly people I’ve met) a place they’ve landed intentionally with a lot of thought and consideration. A lot of continually checking in to see if this actually works. Or, “Am I just avoiding commitment or avoiding something else?”
I think that does happen. But for most poly people, it feels right for them based on many years of exploration and feedback and evidence. Just like for me, it fits more naturally with how I view love and what is love.
So anyway, I got off the topic of stereotypes, but those are some of them.
Minka Guides: No, you’re exactly on topic.
It was funny because when you spoke about people thinking that being bisexual means you can’t make a choice or a decision, it reminded me that I saw on Feeld recently someone listed that they were a non-binary, non-monogamous bisexual switch and a Libra. But they were like, “I promise I can make a choice.”
(laughs)
They were like I know I’m playing into all of the stereotypes right now. But I am actually able to make a constructive decision.
Robert: I feel like I make lots of choices, and some of them are hard choices and I’m capable of making them.
But something I’ve come to understand that’s in part of my bisexuality is like fluidity over time. And I’ve realized I’m different than I was ten years ago. And five years ago. And even a few months ago. I don’t I don’t mind making decisions.
Minka Guides: Surprise! We change.
Robert: We change, and once you acknowledge that, it’s not that it’s hard to make a decision but it does kind of feel limiting to lock yourself into decisions. You’re making now that will last forever.
So, I know it does get complicated with commitment to a person. I do think I have commitments to people that I do want to last forever. But sometimes it’s like, “Well, I don’t know that the details of that arrangement will last forever.”
I think our love will last as long as we live. But how does that look? And how do we want to express that with each other? I do feel pressured to say I’ll want this situation forever. I just don’t know how I’ll feel in the future.
Minka Guides: Yes, because really at the end of the day, none of us does. But our society places a lot of emphasis and value on being able to say, “This is who I am, this is what I want, this is who I’ll be forever, and this is what I’ll want forever.”
Robert: Right.
Minka Guides: And, surprise! That doesn’t happen with anyone. None of us can do that. We can only move forward with the best intentions based on how we feel in the moment of course.
Robert: Right, and actually, can I say one other thing about that to me makes the love more meaningful: to not have these structures on top of it and these commitments that we don’t that don’t really come from within. I think some monogamous people get scared of the idea their partner could leave them if they don’t want to be in it anymore. But I wouldn’t want to be in a relationship where you have to stay in it if you don’t want to just because you’ve made this commitment.
To me, there’s so much value in the polyamory of it and in the continual choosing to be together. I value my partners who make that choice every month, every week, every day to still want to be with me because they want to.
Minka Guides: Yes.
Robert: Then I know it’s really real and authentic. As opposed to, “Well, my partner’s still with me because we got married, and we have vows, and we have to stay together.” That just doesn’t feel as authentic to me as like my partner could leave and is dating other people and could not want to be with me anymore. Well, then, the fact that they’re choosing to be with me feels so much more special and more meaningful because of that other choice they have.
Minka Guides: Exactly. That also you can trust that they are waking up every day and actively choosing to be there. Rather than they’ve made some commitment that they feel like they have to honor for the rest of their life.
Robert: Right.
Minka Guides: But also that topic of trust I think leads to a conflation between bisexuality and non-monogamy.
I think there’s this idea in this stereotype that bisexuals can’t be trusted because they can’t choose. They may decide to go off with somebody else, another gender, blah blah blah, whatever. They may be more promiscuous.
But also that with non-monogamous folks, as well. It’s just like, “Oh well they can’t be trusted because you don’t know what they’re going to do at any point. They could change their mind. They could do anything. You can’t build a relationship on that basis.”
So, I think that there is a theme of trust that’s in there as well. Perhaps why these things are linked together sometimes.
Robert: Right?
It’s interesting, though, because what that brings up for me is that in order to make non-monogamy work, you are forced to talk about so many things. Talk through and navigate stuff that’s really hard to talk about. You just have to make it work.
When you get good at those kinds of conversations, at really expressing yourself and really repairing a relationship after a rupture, that all builds trust.
So, I feel like I have even more trust within poly relationships than I used to have in monogamous ones, where a lot would go unsaid. In my past, I would just make assumptions and just assume a partner felt this way. Or that I should be a certain way.
Polyamory forces you to have these conversations. That’s not to say you can’t do that in monogamy and many people do. You can build trust in a monogamous relationship and you can express yourself authentically and not keep things inside.
But sometimes, I do think the structures of monogamy allow things to go unsaid because the structure of that relationship style feels like enough. That it’s stable and it’s consistent and sometimes it is and sometimes it isn’t. Like it could be an illusion.
So, I think it’s really important, regardless of your relationship style, to have those tough conversations and really be authentic with a partner. Talk about what you’re scared of and talk about what you really want. Those things are what lead to trust. Not never sleeping with someone else.
Sometimes that can breed distrust if it’s not authentic. It can breed resentment if you’re not talking about it. Trust is super important. It just doesn’t correlate with the way many people think.
Minka Guides: Exactly.
I wonder when you were interviewing all of these bisexual married men – it was originally the book and then the podcast. Is that correct?
Robert: Yeah, I did the book and then a season of the podcast where I reinterviewed some of the guys from the book who were okay to not be anonymous.
Minka Guides: Yes, exactly.
I wonder how, through those interviews, you saw illustrations of challenging this stereotype that bisexuality must mean non-monogamy?
That bisexuals can’t be trusted. That it must mean the end of that relationship. All of these kind of things. Were there some examples that particularly come to mind for you?
Robert: Yeah. I tried to include a diverse range of experiences in the book. I did get to choose which people to include. They told me a brief version of their story, and I chose. It’s not a scientific study, but it does represent a lot of possibilities.
So, sometimes non-monogamy got brought up by the guy in the relationship because that was something he wanted to try. For many of those guys, it was it was people who didn’t get to explore that before their marriage.
Many bi guys don’t come out or don’t even realise it until they’re married. I think Mimi Hoang talks a lot about how we can live out our bi-ness and actually express it in our bodies. One of those ways is to be sexually active with men and women. I think, especially for guys who never had that chance to explore before they entered a monogamous relationship with a woman, that’s something that they often want to do. It’s on their mind.
So, some of those guys were like that. Some of them opened up their marriage and explored it. They’re together and they’re non-monogamous. Some of them opened up and then did not stay together. I would argue it’s not because they opened up their marriage that they ended up not together. That was sort of just something that happened and they were not going to stay together anyway.
But it’s hard to say. You don’t really know the trajectory. I will say every guy who came out to his wife and explored non-monogamy doesn’t regret doing that. They’re all happy. They came out and expressed all this and had these discussions and opened things up. It was better than living with it repressed.
Minka Guides: I can imagine.
Robert: Then there were guys who didn’t necessarily want to open things up. Some of them were guys who did get to explore their sexuality with other men at a younger age or before they got married at some point. Or just people who are naturally monogamous. They wanted to come out to their wives about being bisexual but not open their marriage up.
But then, because they came out as bi, their wives assumed that this was going to lead to non-monogamy. Or that they would want to hook up with guys. So the wives brought up non-monogamy and it became a discussion in that way.
For some of them, the husband was like, “No I don’t want to explore this. I just want you to know that I’m bi and I want to be out as bisexual.” They stayed monogamous and they moved on. Some of them did open it up for a short time and then closed their marriage again. Then there were others. It was hard to negotiate. It was hard for their wives to really believe that they didn’t need to explore this.
There’s one couple in the book who I also interviewed both of them on the podcast. His wife talks about how scared she was. It took her so long to believe that he didn’t need to explore. To be honest, sometimes they still struggle with that. They’re still thinking maybe they’ll explore a threesome together so that he can have that experience.
But in that case, he keeps sort of insisting he doesn’t need it. He just wants to be out and be able to talk about it and be open about it. But he doesn’t need to explore that in person.
Basically, there’s a range. It always comes up as a topic, whichever partner brings it up. But not everyone in my book needed to explore that. Some who explored it then went back to monogamy, and some opened it up and it works. There are some from each of those categories where the marriage ended.
What I talk about in the book is how we view relationships generally as: if they don’t last till the end of your life, they were a failure. In writing this book and talking to these guys, it helped me reframe what is success and failure in a relationship. And to me, it’s not staying together forever.
Minka Guides: Exactly.
Robert: In fact, many times, that can be a sign of a failed relationship. If it wasn’t meaningful and authentic and positive for the people involved. If you have a nice relationship with someone for some amount of time and then it’s not working for both of you, you shouldn’t stay in it. You should still be able to celebrate what it was and what you had. It can still be a success even if it ends.
Minka Guides: Yes, absolutely.
I think that’s one of the things that comes up a lot these days. Understanding this toxic notion that we have that if a relationship ends, it fails. Unless you’re committing for life and it ends because one of you dies. Anything other diverts from that kind of narrative is, therefore, a failure, which is just so disappointing. Because these days we all have many lovely relationships in our lives. Most people don’t marry the first person they date.
Robert: Right.
Minka Guides: But that doesn’t mean that those connections don’t have worth and don’t have value for all of us.
So I think it’s really interesting that through doing the podcast, it reframed that for you. That you were able to see that as well.
One of the things that’s so important about your podcast and this book is just generally we’re talking a lot about bisexuality in men. But I think that this is something that feels very different even from about five (and definitely ten) years ago is this rise in the visibility of bisexual men.
I’ve only been on dating apps for five years. But in that time I’ve seen the rise in the number of men openly indicating that they’re bi. It has risen dramatically, which for me is amazing because I want to date bi guys. I’m queer and if I’m gonna date a guy like that’s totally the kind of guy that I want to date. So for me, I’m just like YEAH when I see it happening! This is amazing.
Why do you think that bisexual visibility has happened? What do you think has ushered in that switch to make people feel more comfortable now?
Robert: I think it’s mostly my podcast having its global reach (laughs). You know we started five years ago.
Minka Guides: (laughs) There’s the evidence.
Robert: No, I mean I actually don’t think it’s because of my podcast but I do think it’s related. There’s more just more and more stuff. There are more books. There are more social media people. There’s a lot more on TikTok and. Instagram.
I think it’s like a snowball effect. There was a lot of bi activism for decades that didn’t fully sink in. I didn’t really see it when I was growing up but it was there and they were planting the seeds and laying the groundwork.
I think everything really started to bloom in the last five to ten years, and honestly, maybe the pandemic helped. It’s the silver lining of the pandemic is we had all this time to live with ourselves and do self-reflection.
And we also had this crisis that shit could go bad quickly. The world could end. Your life is short. You only live once. I do think there was a big something that happened then where people thought, if I don’t talk about this or accept this and come out now when am I? What’s the point of keeping it to myself?
So I do think a lot of people came out during the pandemic. Then it’s like a snowball effect and it’s the seeds blooming, right? The more exposure there is and the more visibility, it’ll just compound on itself and grow exponentially.
That’s what you’re seeing with the statistics. Young people who are growing up now with this environment they’re so much more bi. There’s so much more queer. Statistics are… I think it’s like a quarter of Gen Z is queer, and the increase in that is mostly an increase in bisexual-identified people under the bi umbrella: bi/pan/fluid/questioning/queer. Like some non-monosexual version of queer. Basically, it’s doubling in every generation, the number of queer people and the number of bi people is more than doubling.
So, just as it becomes more accepted, younger people are realising that maybe we don’t have to box ourselves in. Straightness boxes you in, but honestly, maybe we don’t have to box ourselves in with gay and lesbian labels either (because those are also monosexual and can be limiting if you’re somewhere in the middle of the spectrum).
So, yeah, I’m not totally sure, but it’s just expanding on itself.
Minka Guides: Exactly, yeah.
It’s so interesting because as someone who is a teenager in the 90s and actually came out as bisexual in the 90s, maybe like 1998/99, something like that (and then quickly changed to queer once I hit university and started kind of exploring more about stuff like that). But I remember because it was in the 90s women being bisexual was seen as this very commodified sexual thing. That it was like seen as okay and cool.
This is not necessarily true because, as someone who grew up in regional Australia and came out in high school, that is not necessarily what my experience was at all. It wasn’t considered necessarily a cool thing, but it was in the media. We were seeing on TV shows like Buffy and in films. Girls kissing each other seemingly being this cool thing.
But for men, it was still such an enormous taboo. So, it is really interesting to see how that shift with gender stuff is happening. Also, as you say during the pandemic, it was not just sexuality. It was people’s gender identity and their relationship structures, too. Everyone started questioning a lot of that stuff.
So I think that’s why we’re seeing that huge wave of change happening now. Where people are starting to be like, “Well, you know, life could actually turn out to be kind of short. So I may as well just start living how I want to now.”
Robert: Right.
Minka Guides: “So yeah, actually, by the way, it turns out I don’t fit into the norm in the following ways.”
Robert: Right?
I’m glad you mentioned the gender stuff. I don’t know why I forgot to mention that but I do think they’re very related. I’ve learned a lot about gender. I see gender as more fluid now. In a way, I didn’t necessarily understand that 10-15 years ago.
So, I think as that becomes more visible. It really also causes people to check in about their sexuality. Especially if you know people who are gender fluid, nonbinary, or trans. I’ve seen people transition, my wife, for example, and I’m like, “Oh I’m still attracted to you regardless of your gender.” So, if I wasn’t already bi I would be now.
Or what if you’re attracted to a nonbinary person? Does that mean you’re still straight? You start asking yourselves those questions as you meet people who are exploring the gender spectrum and that will often affect your sexuality.
Then another thing you said I just also want to point out. I think that queerness and gender fluidity have always been there under the surface. It’s just that it hasn’t been societally accepted to be out and talk about these things. So I think it’s rising. What 25% of Gen Z is queer, right? I don’t know if that’s the peak or if 50% or 75%. I don’t know what the peak is but whenever we get to the peak and we plateau, that I think has always been there. Like the 25% at a minimum has always been there. We just haven’t been able to express it and show it safely and now it’s becoming. ..
It’s like left-handed folks. People used to think there were no lefties but it was that we trained it out of people in school. We didn’t allow people to be lefties and once we allowed it, it rose and then it plateaued. There’s a certain number of natural lefties and I think it’s going to be the same thing. It’s always been there.
Minka Guides: Well, I’m totally curious to see where that plateau comes, if it happens in my lifetime, because I’m like: tell me. I want to know. I grew up being told I was one in 10 because I was queer. But now we’re seeing actually those statistics are not true.
Robert: Yeah.
Minka Guides: That’s really interesting.
The final question I have for you: Have you watched the TV show Couple to Throuple yet? Or have you seen bits from it?
Robert: Not yet. I know it’s on my list. I’ve heard about it. People are telling me I should watch it.
Minka Guides: I was very pessimistic at the start, and to be honest, the first episode is something that you just have to get through. You’re like, “Oh my god! What is this “polyamorous representation” I’m seeing?” But actually, it really grew on me, and by the end I was really really into it.
I came through it all with the thought of like, “Wow, bisexual non-monogamists really do have the most fun!” In the setup of it all, if you were bisexual, you would just had so many more options in that show. Whereas the people who were straight were like, “Oh no, we’re looking for this person to fit our dynamic to be this very specific thing.”
Whereas all the non-binary, non-monogamous bisexuals were just having an absolute field day. They were like, “What about this option? What about this?” It made me realise when we shake off the stereotypes, and we shake off the shame, and we shake off the negativity. It is actually quite a fun thing to be.
Robert: Oh, it’s amazing. I think that that’s what my favourite part of bisexuality and queerness, in general, is this freedom of anything is cool. Anything can make me happy. I think that it’s just so freeing and liberating to be able to not always go in with expectations or know exactly what you want and to be pleasantly surprised and happy with whatever you find.
And whatever is there because every person is unique and interesting. Not that you have to be attracted to everyone and bi people are not attracted to every person. But the potential is there with anyone. There’s no disqualifier, right?
Minka Guides: Yeah.
Robert: Or at least there’s not a gender disqualifier for bi people. In general, queerness is more I think about this open-mindedness. Of not having this specific “here’s the dynamic, here’s the exact thing we’re looking for.” I think that’s so beautiful and fun.
Minka Guides: Exactly.
Robert: I used to be one of those people who thought it has to be like this and I like these certain things. Over time, I realised it was just like, “Oh, I do like those things. But there’s also more I might like if I tried it and open myself to it.” It’s been just such a fun journey of doing that step by step and at every step realising, “Yeah, this is cool too. I don’t know what I was afraid of.” I’m open to lots of different things, and it’s so freeing.
Minka Guides: What a lovely note to end on there, Rob.
If people are interested in finding your podcast or your book, how would they go about doing that?
Robert: My website is robertbrookscohen.com, and you can find everything on there: the podcast, the book, my coaching practice (I’m a life coach for bi people). Then the podcast is called Two Bi Guys, so wherever you listen to podcasts, if you search Two Bi Guys, you will find it.
Minka Guides: Perfect. If you’re watching this on YouTube, there’ll be links to everything in the show notes underneath. If you’re reading or seeing this on my blog, there’ll be links to everything on there as well.
Thank you so much, Rob. This was such a wonderful conversation to have. Good luck with your future endeavours with the podcast.
Robert: Yeah, thank you so much for having me. This is a lovely little conversation. I enjoyed it. Nice to finally get to do it.
Minka Guides: I’m glad. Exactly. Okay, bye.
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